I was going to say "Causing a division" (i.e. Thinking for Yourself) but I suppose there are some other religious groups out there that would nail people for that. I still think it's very humorous, sad but humorous.
Happy Guy :)
JoinedPosts by Happy Guy :)
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51
What Are "Sins" That Are Unique To A Jehovah's Witness???
by minimus inhere's one to start the ball rolling.
if you are not feeling well, have a headache, a backache, whatever but you would go to work but didn't go to a meeting or in "field service"---then you "sinned" against jehovah.....any others?
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251
Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
by booker-t ini must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
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Happy Guy :)
One problem ppl haven't mentioned yet is the fact that the term "archangel" doesn't occur at all in the OT. It didn't appear for the first time in the NT either. It gained a widespread usage in the intertestamental period, where it referred to the highest order of angels -- usually including Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, and Uriel. It is fallacious to look only to a couple of occurrences of the word "archangel" in the NT and ignore its wider context -- especially since NT writers themselves adopted the term from intertestamental writings.
Good job Leolaia. Damn there are some good bible scholars here like you and Blondie and Narkissos and some others. We could start are own cult!
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251
Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
by booker-t ini must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
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Happy Guy :)
Thank you for you post euripides. You have made some observations that are very reasonable.
With regard to your comment:
However, if you first believe that Jesus must be Michael then his singularity as archangel must follow.
I would agree except for one problem: The bible also is over a thousand pages plenty of opportunity to say directly that Jesus is Michael if it were true. I like to view this issue from the practical side of the fact that the bible does not categorically say Jesus is Michael and there is absolutely no reason for it to be cryptic on this issue therefor, the assumption should be that they are not the same until proven categorically otherwise. After all, they have different names and nothing in the bible indicates that either "Michael" ever goes by "Jesus" or that "Jesus" goes by "Michael". As well Michael is never given a distinction of "King" or referring to "his Kingdom" these are distictions for Jesus and God alone. That would be the base assumption to start from and one would have to prove categorically otherwise. It is for this reason that one could not start with an assumption that Jesus is Michael.
Also, simply because the bible refers to Michael as a Prince and Jesus as a Prince does not imply that they are the same person. As you also pointed out it refers to Satan as a Prince. Therefor the Prince designation is not evidence in and of itself of Michael also being Jesus.
Also, as you mentioned there is no basis to believe there is only one archangel. Saying that there is only one because the bible says "Michael the archangel" proves nothing. That would be like saying "Harry the Prince" and saying that there is only one Prince in the Royal Family when in fact we know there are more.
We already know that Daniel 10:13 says "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia..."
"One of" implies several. It is pluralized. Therefor the evidence points to several chief angels. Since arch=chief this line could also be written "Michael one of the Arch Angels" which would prove there are several since it is pluralized.
Greenpalmtreestillmine
Thank you for complimenting my screen name. I would like to reciprocate and compliment you on your actual name - Sabrina is a very nice name.
If Michael is not Jesus, then who is he? Who is this archangel who comes to Gabriel's assistance with such strength that Gabriel
Simply he is Michael. We have already established that there are more than one archangel. Why do we have to blend any two of them into one being? That would be not much different than blending God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit for the sake of the trinity.
Remember Michael was "Prince of Daniel's people" and Jesus was King of the Jews.
Michael was "Prince of Daniels people" and Jesus was "Prince of Peace"
Miichael was "Protector" of Daniel's People and Jesus was "Saviour" of all Humankind
There is alot of evidence to support different beings with complimentary but different roles. There is little, if any, evidence that Michael is Jesus and certainly no solid evidence.
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2
Did anyone do a `Ratner' in your congregation?
by badboy in.
some time ago, mr ratner who owned some jewellry shops, who said his customers buy cr*p.. was there anyone who said something similiar in your congregation?.
badboy of the`lets hear it' class.
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Happy Guy :)
rofl Gumby
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28
After 6 months of working on it, it's finally done
by seven006 ini haven't been posting much lately for three reasons, iv been working my butt off, also trying to slip in a little time to finish my web site, and, i no longer get the one time joy and personal fulfillment i use to get giving shit to all the christians on this board.
to be honest, i really like some of the open minded christians here even if they still hang on to the jesus myth.
my new outlook on it all is, what ever floats your rocks.. .
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Happy Guy :)
It's very nice Dave.
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251
Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
by booker-t ini must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
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Happy Guy :)
Ah thank you for finding one of the examples I was looking for Sabrina. (and thank you Blondie for originally introducing me to an online Bible a couple of weeks ago in one of your threads)
I believe this actually is good evidence that Michael is not Jesus.
Daniel 10:13 has been brought up as evidence that he is not: "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia..."
"One of the Chief Princes" is a plural form. If there were only one chief it would read "Michael the Chief Prince".
If it only said "One of the Princes" there would be no doubt that it would imply one of many princes. By the same token it says "One of the Chief Princes" which implies there are several princes with a very key designation or significance.
I will give you an analogy: When there is an architectural project which has a number of architcts working on developing the project. While their might be a dozen or so architects working on a project their might be 3 chief architects. Hence the term "One of the Chief Architects of the project"
So your example actually proves that Micheal is but one of several chief princes.
The bible also is over a thousand pages - plenty of opportunity to say that Jesus is Michael if it were true.
To indicate that they are not the same we have plenty of examples starting with yours:
"There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." Daniel 10: 21b
Later in chapter 12 of Daniel this same Michael is described in this way: ""At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book."
This is very significant in that it clearly refers to Michael as a "prince" and also "protector" wheras Jesus' title was much higher and greater than "Prince" or "Protector", Jesus was a "King":
and asked, "Where is the one who has been born King of the Jews? We saw his star in the east (Matthew 2:2)
Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Matthew 27:11)
and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand and knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said. (Matthew 27:29)
Above his head they placed the written charge against him:|sc THIS IS JESUS, THE KING OF THE JEWS. (Matthew 27:37)
"Are you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate. "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Mark 15:2)
"Do you want me to release to you the king of the Jews?" asked Pilate, (Mark 15:9)
"What shall I do, then, with the one you call the king of the Jews?" Pilate asked them. (mark 15:12)
And they began to call out to him, "Hail, king of the Jews!" (Mark 15:18)
The written notice of the charge against him read: THE KING OF THE JEWS. (Mark 15:26) The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. (Luke 7:3) So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. (Luke 23:3)
and said, "If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself." (Luke 23:37) There was a written notice above him, which read:|sc THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS. (Luke 23:38) Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" (John 18:33) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." (John 18:36) But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release 'the king of the Jews'?"
(John 18:39) and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they struck him in the face. (John 19:3) From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar." (John 19:12) It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews. (John 19:14) Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. (John 19:19) The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews." (John 19:21) -
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WT statistics ???
by aniron in.
i have heard that there are no statistics published in the jan !st 2005 watchtower magazine.
is this true?
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Happy Guy :)
Someone posted in another thread that those stats would be available in the Feb. '05 edition.
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Just had my first "cold call"
by onacruse inin the course of the last 3 years, i've had just one visit from jws: a visit from from an old bethel roomate and another elder, just to check up on me, and see if i might want to rejoin the fold.
you might well be able to imagine my responses.
then, last weekend, a nice young fellow (mitch) and his young (teenage) daughter, stopped by, while i was working in the yard.
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Happy Guy :)
i've found that nothing annoys a dub more than to use the word "happy"
Very perseptive.
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39
ALLEYMOM INJURED!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Dansk indear all,.
marjorie (alleymom) might not thank us for publishing this news but you all need to know.
this wonderfully caring lady has been injured in a car crash.
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Happy Guy :)
Sorry to hear about the accident.
Happy to hear you weren't seriously injured.
Get well soon AM.
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251
Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
by booker-t ini must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.
i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.
fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.
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Happy Guy :)
Blondie: Thanks I picked that up when I clicked on your link. Very interesting site.
Leolaia: Thanks for all your hard work. I think the point I was making and one which your evidence supports is that there is more than one archangel. One of the JW proofs of Jesus=Michael relies on the term archangel being applied to Jesus and Michael and the WT claim that there is only one archangel so they must be one and the same. The notion that the bible never once says in thousands of pages that Jesus=michael and the fact that it mentions more than one archangel disproves the Michael=Jesus claim.
I agree with your assertion Blondie that WT has done this to give credibility to their anti-trinity doctrine.